Just being immersed in the culture and speaking a lot will not do it.

Here is the podcast

Today I went for a haircut. My barber talks a lot. Sometimes he even stops cutting just to talk, which I find mildly annoying. On the other hand I am always entertained for 30 minutes while he cuts my hair. He does a good job and charges me 18 dollars, which is not the cheapest, but not the most expensive, haircut in Vancouver.

He told me that he came to Canada as a 16 year old, 20 years ago. He went to hair dressing school and then worked for a chain of hair salons for 5 years, in different locations in the city. He got to know the personalities of different kinds of clients. He found he did not like working in the heavily Chinese district of Richmond because, in his words, the customers would arrive late and expect to be served right away. If they were not served immediately, they assumed that the customer who was being served in their place had paid extra. He did not like the pressure of that situation.

He eventually opened his own shop in North Vancouver. He said that he made sure to learn about all the subjects that his clients were interested in, from fly fishing to the stock market. He knew that if customers liked him, they would come back.

After 20 years in Canada, dealing daily with English speaking Canadian clients, his English is just terrible. His pronunciation, use of words, structure, you name it, are all quite poor. When he talked about a leading politician and his wife, "he" and "she" were regularly used wrong. I had trouble understanding whom he was talking about. People who are not used to Chinese accents must have trouble understanding him. His English is poor even by the standards of his native Hong Kong.

Just being immersed in the language and talking the language will not necessarily improve you. You need to want to improve. You need to have a deliberate program of improvement. You need to listen.

On the other hand, he was successful at building up a customer base, and did not seem to feel inhibited in any way by his poor English. He was a communicator, although a better talker than a listener. I have not suggested to him that he join The Linguist.

Comments

[米蘭]

In regards to my father, he immigrated from Croatia to Australia in the 70's at 25 years old. He never attended English school nor did he know 1 word of English before arriving to Australia. Of course never watching Croatian movies in Australia, he still had some Croat friends throughout the years which he speaks his native language.

He told me it only took him 1 year to be fluent in English just by being immersed and being forced to survive. The pressure to make a living and be understood forced him to learn the vocabulary and improve.

I can assure my father is extremely fluent making little mistakes, however, still speaks with a Croatian accent.

Does this rule apply for some people

Does the Hong Kong person in your post speak Cantonese at home, watch Canto VCD's, etc?

[Edwin]

Steve, I have a barber very much like yours! But his shop is in the Chinese community and his English with thick HK accent is still understandable. Besides, he only charges $8 CAD tax included. :P

[Art]

Yes, there are a lot of myths about language learning and the primary one is that immersion somehow helps to achieve fluency. That’s a lie but no one believes that that’s a lie. Also, have you ever heard a story about a dozen of words in the Eskimos language to describe snow? That’s a lie too but still everyone repeats that story over and over again.

I think people want to believe in magic and aren’t willing to face facts about what it means to learn and acquire a language. It’s all about the brain and how it works.

--
Art

P.S. Here is the story: “Experts tell us the Eskimos have about four dozen words for snow. Or is it 200? Or seven? Or maybe four? Here's a hint: It's roughly the same number as in English. And here's another hint: Most of the people who throw Eskimo snow-word numbers around don't know anything about it, and haven't bothered to look it up.” http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/09/24/sex_on_the_brain/

[Lantian]

Hi Steve,
This is obviously a very common case of what the academics call 'fossilization'. Of course your own case makes a good argument that it is not an inherent outcome.

Can you provide us with some of your insights about what it takes to keep from fossilizing, or what it takes to prevent, overcome it?

You say "You need to want to improve. You need to have a deliberate program of improvement. You need to listen".

I'm sure the barber listens, and he gets to listen to many and varied people every day.
What specifically about listening is it that you do or recommend?

Wanting to improve. I think I already have that motivation, but what in your mind is a deliberate program? What kind of self-metrics, milestones do you use to chart the course?

It's an interesting topic to me as I'm currently living in China, learning Chinese. After almost two years, lately I have noticed an uptick in people telling me my Chinese is bad. It's not really, but as I improve it seems people are more comfortable with honest criticism.

Am I entering the 'jurassic' zone?!

[jemini]

This is someone who did learn through immersion.

http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/index.html

你好~哈哈无意中看到你的BLOG地址 我是中国人很想说好英文
renmengwei52@yahoo.com.cn 这是我的E-MAIL 希望联系

你好~哈哈无意中看到你的BLOG地址 我是中国人很想说好英文
renmengwei52@yahoo.com.cn 这是我的E-MAIL 希望联系

你写的我基本看不懂~``

[KamalWaynad]

Hi steve,
When I read your statemnt on talkative persons I guessed more about myself. I am considered so among my coworkers and friends. Today there was even a comment on talk by our supervisor Mr. Abdulla Koppam in Arabil "Kamal Kalam Katheer" that means More Talkative is Kamal. ie. me.
Any way in my openion it is the more talk led me to the hights that I could face at the same time the words I used mistakenly somtimes led me to misfortune. Only this talking experience mde me a speaker of english in Indian accent.