Why LingQ is better.

Here is the podcast.

Ilya asked in a recent comment why I thought that LingQ was better than more famous systems like Assimil, Pimsleur, FSI, Rosetta Stone etc. It goes back to the natural way we learn. Here is a description of the Natural Approach, with which I largely agree.

THE NATURAL APPROACH
A language learning approach developed by Tracy Terrell and Stephen Krashen, starting in 1977. It is based on the following tenets:

1. Language acquisition (an unconscious process developed through using language meaningfully) is different from language learning (consciously learning or discovering rules about a language) and language acquisition is the only way competence (the tacit knowledge that underlies the language performance of a speaker of a language) in a second language occurs. (The acquisition/learning hypothesis)
2. Conscious learning operates only as a monitor or editor that checks or repairs the output of what has been acquired. (The monitor hypothesis)
3. Grammatical structures are acquired in a predictable order and it does little good to try to learn them in another order.(The natural order hypothesis).
4. People acquire language best from messages that are just slightly beyond their current competence. (The input hypothesis)
5. The learner's emotional state can act as a filter that impedes or blocks input necessary to acquisition. (The affective filter hypothesis)

I am not sure about 3) above. Structures are so different in different languages that I wonder how the order can be predictable for all people regardless of their native language and regardless of their personality. What is clear to me is that we do not learn grammatical structures based on the teacher's agenda, nor on the agenda of any text book or teaching system. We gradually get used to them, just as we gradually get used to words, phrases and even sounds.

So lots of exposure, lots of input, meaningful, enjoyable and not too difficult input, chosen by the learner is essential. In the early stages there needs to be a lot of repetitive listening and reading. Reviewing words and phrases that have been discovered in listening and reading can help a lot if it is done in an enjoyable and efficient way. Record keeping helps to keep you motivated.

I believe that LingQ is the only system that really applies Krashen's principles. We offer a wide choice of content. The content will grow in all languages. We expect to be able to offer interesting personal content from our members as well as audio books and podcasts on all kinds of subjects. We expect that our word count system will help learners find content at their level. Learners can import content of their choice.Our vocab learning system is integrated with reading and listening, and now even with writing. Eventually even the speaking will integrate with the vocabulary learning. We think the members of LIngQ will enjoy their learning and therefore learn.

In my experience Pimsleur covers very little material, and fluency requires a large vocabulary. Pimsleur as well as Michel Thomas has too much learner language in their audio material making it difficult to listen repetitively. FSI is still based on drilling unconnected and boring phrases. Rosetta stone focuses on pictures and also does not get you too far. Assimil is probably the best of the lot, but still only covers a small amount of content and vocabulary. With LingQ the content will eventually be limitless.

I admit that I am not impartial and look forward to other opinions.

Comments

[Tony]

Steve,

Congratulations for the official launch of LingQ. Do you want get those UC visitors involved? I can help you to set up the program if you want, least I could do for all your helps to my language learning.

Tony

[Roni]

My experience with Pimsleur is good. There is not really so much need to listen repetitively because there is enough repetition within the system in a way that I have found to be effectively memorable. It is true that it does not cover enough vocabulary - I have done 90 half-hour lessons of Mandarin and there was no coverage of colours. This being omitted, it does however cover most of the most important situations one might find oneself in.

Pimsleur's greatest strength is that it enables the learner to understand structures well and without too much effort or thinking, remember effectively and being able to use what is learnt. I think as a result it is very useful in acquiring the early stages and foundations of a language.

With regards to LingQ, (I am of course not speaking from experience so my opinion not worth much but) it is difficult for me to see how I would acquire the basics of a language to be able to use it. However, I suppose maybe I should trust myself more to be able to figure it out for myself simply by exposure to the language. If you are saying that there is a very important need for interesting material when learning a language, this is a problem when it is difficult to find any. Repetitive listenings to boring materials are not motivating.

So far, I can't see much enjoyable scope for using LingQ for levels much lower than pre-intermediate. But, content is of course expanding.

I think in the end it is not really a case of competition between language learning systems/methods/theories, just taste really.

[tianhao]

Dear Mr. Kaufmann,

As you probably remember I’ve posted a few comments about language learning a couple of months ago. I know that your attitude towards opinions of other people is open. So that’s the reason why I write this letter to you. First of all I want to start with the comment that almost on all video’s or tapes you are talking in a foreign language about language learning. I’ve noticed that when speaking you don’t use a large variety of vocabulary.( 你词汇量是范围的) Moreover, I’ve also noticed that you are just reading the speeches when talking on those video’s. In the very beginning I was also amazed by your ability of speaking foreign languages. Later I found out that this whole circus is just a tool for you to make money. I came to this conclusion after listening to a few speeches of you in radio shows etc. I found out that almost all of your stories are more or less the same. As a regular Dutch person I just took the best out of it. Read all the info and tips for free and developed my own method of language learning. I doubt about your lingq system. The reason why i’m still not convinced is that you are using material provided by members of the lingq group. So the lingq system is basically a system which is putting together all different kinds of material. So how can your lingq system be much better than all those other systems while the material comes from a huge audience all with a different approach towards language learning?
In addition, I use a large variety of material myself. As a learner of foreign languages I do believe you have to select the best material out of a large variety of material. So for instance, for Cantonese I’m using teach yourself Cantonese written by hugh baker and ho-po-kei and I’m using the fsi course just to get acquainted to the Cantonese pronunciation and tones. Moreover, as a person who speaks fluent Mandarin the material I mentioned above, additional tv-series (连续剧), and a large amount of Chinese immigrants who are speaking cantonese and got plans to learn mandarin make me confident of learning Cantonese without using the lingq system.
I also want to ask you a question about excessive learning and listening when learning a new language. How were you be able to learn Cantonese by excessive reading, while almost all written Chinese resources are based on mandarin?

However, despite the comments I’ve made I like to read your Blog. And I want to thank you for your vision upon language learning. Actually your language learning approach is very close to mine. I read, talk and listen to languages excessively as well to grasp vocabulary. I just wanted to point out that in my vision a few languages you are saying you are fluent at aren’t as strong as you wanna make the audience believe. (especially german)

Kind regards,

Tianhao (Holland)

[Roni]

In Mr. Kaufmann's defence, I would have to say that many of the blog entries in English (his native tongue) he appears to be reading from speeches.

I would have to say that so far the content available on LingQ for the languages I am learning (Japanese, Spanish, no Mandarin yet) is minimal andnot very interesting yet. The greatest strength of the system is that it is internet based, and thus is a flexible system and effectively a language exchange system. There is a points system which necessitates and encourages users to create content. It may not be of quality at times, but the system is such that good content is also encouraged,

[Steve]

Roni,

Do not judge LingQ in the languages you want to learn based on the content we have now. It will get better. Give us a few months.

Tianhao,

Your points are

1) I have limited vocabulary in the languages that I speak.

2) I only read in the various videos of me speaking different languages

3) I am phoney just pretending to speak languages in order to make money.

4) My ideas on language learning are always the same.

5) Content on Lingq cannot be good because it is from members.

6) You like certain other content, from well established learning systems.

7) How could I learn Cantonese by extensive reading?

8) My German is not as good as I claim.

9) Other than that you find me open,and you like my blog and ideas.

My answers.

1)You are in no position to judge my vocabulary and make assumptions, nor do I need to meet your expectations. My vocabulary is quite large in the nine languages that I claim to speak fluently, although I may be rusty in some. Speaking languages is not a competition.By the way your statement 你词汇量是范围的 does not make any sense. I assume it is a typo.

2)The videos on the front page of our system are read in 11 languages. On this blog and in youtube there are clips of me speaking naturally (not reading) in a variety of languages. But in any case fluency does not mean perfection, it just means being able to communicate.

3) You think I am a phoney. Not much I can do there. First I would like to see you and a group of collaborators put five years of effort into a product or service which you hope will be of value to others. Once you have done this, then you can come and criticize what we are doing at LingQ.

4) My ideas on language learning are what they are and they are all over this blog, which you apparently like.

5,6) The best content is what people like to learn from. It is our intent at LingQ to have an infinite amount of content from different languages. Some people like text books and others like natural conversation or radio programs. We need to provide it all. The content is not the system.

7) I usually stress listening over reading, and have never claimed to learn Cantonese through reading. For me, as a person who reads Mandarin, learning Cantonese was mostly a listening exercize.

8) My German is good enough, and will improve when I choose to work on it again. Fluency is not perfection.

I must say that I find your comments quite annoying. Essentially you call me a liar, only interested in making money. You make a number of assumptions that you cannot substantiate and which are not true. Quite honestly, reading your comments I quickly came to the conclusion that you are a fool.

[tianhao]

Dear Mr. Kaufman,

As I stated in my last letter. I want and wanted a open dialog. Remember that you are the one who is selling a product here. As a language learner I am (in this situation I was) a potential customer. I just posted a few relevant questions for me. Actually I had hoped you would take your time, stay polite. And explain to your potential customer why your words are valuable enough to listen to. The front video’s are indeed recorded while reading. You have admitted that yourself. Why becoming angry and impolite when I notice that fact? I don’t really see the problem. You are the one claiming to speak those languages fluent. Actually I recently have seen a few video’s of you speaking in a so called natural environment. You constantly switched to another language when your words didn’t come out. Actually you even ended up the tape when it became too worse. For the people who haven’t seen it I refer to www.cantonese.hk. I didn’t say that you are a liar. I just pointed out that you are a smart salesman. Using other people to make your business run. In fact you let people dump crap in your system. Coz those people wanna earn points to get free content. The content can never be of a high quality. Coz members aren’t going to put in valuable content. On which they have worked a few hundred hours. They are rational and hope to get as much points with as less content as possible. The only one who is making profit of that is you. You are the one who is cashing here. And just try to make profit of people with a dream of speaking the languages they like.

At the end of this month you have to face the statistics. The amount of new members who have subscribed for the lingq system will show whether people got confidence in your words. Or agree with my statements. Actually Roni already pointed out that he was sort of disappointed in the content you are providing to him in his target language. Please, offer those people a true product for their money. Take my comments as they are. And try to improve the system you are apparently proud of. You wanted me to substantiate my opinion. Please first substantiate and proof why your product works. I do care more about my fellow language learners than about your business.

I do not need to defend myself or what so ever. My opinion is that I made some reasonable statements. I like people with a vision about languages. Coz I like to speak languages. That means that I listen to everybody with a vision upon languages. We have never been in a customer-company relationship. So that’s why I thought we could have a decent dialog about language learning as linguists.Whether I think it’s useful or not. I just respect other peoples opinions. Be true to yourself. Someone who earns money by bringing about a philosophy in the world can’t be truly objective. A lot of your posts are just centered on brainwashing people. Just like most other language content providers do. Actually, I truly don’t care. I just select my content for free. I mainly do that with tv, radio, and friends from all over the world who are helping me to grasp their language.

Actually I’m developing products and services in my own company. Except importing the machines I need It hasn’t got something to do with languages. But is that a reason for you not to listen to an opinion of another person? Well I don’t think it is. You said everyone who speaks more than 1 language is a linguist. How can it be you stated me as a fool. All of the things you mentioned in your rude reaction are contrary to your own philosophy. I’m speaking five languages reasonably. Well basically I can communicate in all different ways in them. And therefore I’m fluent (when it comes to your understanding). Furthermore I’m improving two other languages. I don’t see any reason to let you walk over me. And to let you state me as a fool or a NOOB.

Well to come to a final statement. I find it quite impolite to react in this way to a few normal statements. You could have pointed out your opinion more politely. I have brought a few statements here which are obviously touching a sensitive point. Your reaction on my letter confirms that. Actually I can substantiate my assumptions by getting with you in a dialog. From my side I don’t see any reason why I would continue this dialog. I mean we are both language learners. Exchanging idea’s always brings people in a win-win situation. Interrupting the dialog by using terms like ‘’Is this a typo?’’ ‘’I quickly come to the conclusion that you are fool’’ don’t make sense for me. Whatever your reaction will be these words won’t have any influence on my business. Please explain your customers why your service and product are still crap. You can better invest your time in developing a better product than spending time upon writing a nonsense reaction to my statements. However, I don’t want to help you in any manner with this business. Your truth apparently seems to be a lie. So for me it is time to say good bye.

Kind regards
Tianhao (Holland)

[Mike]

Steve, before you tie yourself too closely to Krashen and his ideas, take a look at the article at http://www.angelfire.com/az/english4thechildren/krashen.html

[Steve]

Mike,

I am aware of Krashen's theories about the benefit of teaching the children of Spanish speaking immigrants to the US in Spanish in order to improve their English. I do not agree with this. I believe that immigrant children are better of getting their education in English. I am ,at heart, and assimilationist and have little patience with the "politically correct" proponents of diversity at all costs. Multiculturalism or multilingualism or bilingualism needs to be a personal choice not a matter of national ideology, in my view.

On the other hand I find Krashen's views about input based second language acquisition to be very similar to my own experience. I think he is a valid point of reference for that form of language learning.

[Abdulla Hilmy]

I need learn speak english.