Another example of the futility of traditional language education

This article form a BBC survey shows that few people who study foreign languages in the UK end up remembering anything. If no one could add after studying maths for years at school I think there would be a hue and cry. But foreign language education in the UK is a ritual that just goes on, I guess. I think they should either achieve results or stop teaching it. Just a waste of time.

From the survey

Learning at school

The survey found that most adults could only remember about seven words of the language they learned at school.

French was by far the most often studied language, followed by German and Spanish.

But only just over a quarter (27%) of those questioned said they could remember more than 10 basic words - such as "hello'', "goodbye'', "please'' and "thank you''.

Comments

[Chris]

Hmm, over here, the situation is more or less the same, to the point where I'm actually stunned if a NZer can speak a foreign language. I find that rather tragic. And apart from my high-school teacher, I've known only of one person to have great command of a second (or third) language. Chinese, interestingly.

Reading those statistics, I'd have to ask: Just how interested in the language were they back then? I know a lot of people who dropped language classes in high-school, either because it was "too difficult", or they just weren't interested and felt embarassed making an effort. Such statistics make perfect sense in that case. For people who were or are genuinuely interested (I know I certainly was in high-school) then they'd be doing a lot better than that. A shame, really.

[paulino brener]

Steve,

I am sorry if this information is available somewhere in your blog, website, etc. (if that's the case please direct me to it) but at least I couldn't find it in your bio.

I know you are a great language learner but...can you please share with us what experience you have in the area of language teaching? Have you ever taught in a public school? If so, what was your experience there?

Thanks!

[Ro]

I went to school in the UK, so I guess I can relate to this post. I never liked language classes.

You were packed into a room of 30 screaming teenagers (and this was supposed to be the "top" group!) and learned supposedly useful vocabulary such as pencil sharpener, ruler, stepmother etc in total isolation from context.

Notes from adult night classes show this teaching approach is used there too.

That statistic even sounds a little optimistic to me. Most of my friends were intelligent, hard working students now starting out in fields such as medicine, law, business with good degrees from good universities. However, if you ask them what they remember from French or German classes at our school they will barely remember anything. Bear in mind that these were the students who scored A* or A grades in French and German!

Fortunately I had some great teachers that were inspirations to continue studying languages. I think one has to be careful to distinguish the faults of the system from the often brilliant teachers who work in our schools. They are forced to abide by a curriculum and in this sense have their hands more or less tied. I'm sure there is potential for improvement with a change in central policy.

I think that the lack of successful linguists within the UK will hurt us as a country in the future. I mean this not only in the political or economical sense but in the cultural one too. While our EU neighbours speak at least two if not three or four languages, we as Brits will continue to rely on English abroad.

[Chris]

Here's an interesting anecdote: My aunt learned French for seven years at high-school (right through to seventh form), and she was never taught how to speak it! Exchange students from Tahiti came over at some point and she couldn't communicate, because she'd never learned how to. The emphasis is too largely on writing and nowhere near enough on speaking, and this is where I think the system largely fails.

[Edwin]

I am also a product of the UK education system. I got an A and B in Spanish and French, respectively. After all these years, I cannot speak or understand either language.

I decided to relearn my French last year. During the process, I realized that I have unlearned so much, to the point that I couldn't recall what I learned at school. It was a very scary feeling.

Of course, I believe this mishap does not only occur in the UK.

[Steve]

Paulino,

I have no experience teaching in the public school system. I have lots of experience as a student and as a parent of kids in the public school system.

I have experienced and seen the effects of public school teaching on language learning. That is the point of my post. That is why think it is time to look for other solutions.

[David]

Paulino,

Steve doesn't have any experience teaching. He doesn't know how to. He's able to speak a few languages poorly and thinks that qualifies him to present himself as an expert and take your money. HE IS A FRAUD!

[Steve]

David,

You are most welcome to make your comments here. Just as I did the last time, I would ask you to tell us who you are. What is your connection to language? Are you a teacher? Are you a learner? You did not answer the last time. Will you answer now?

[paulino brener]

Steve,

OK, I understand. Thanks for sharing.

The point of my question is the following:

I have found, in my experience, that there are many people out there that find it easy to criticize teachers, schools, schools systems, education, etc. but most of the time they don't have first hand experience on what they are criticizing. They are only outside observers (and critics!)

I think people (including you) need to be careful in using generalizations. Taking one statistics from one country and applying it to another, etc. The reality is that there are good teachers and bad teachers, good schools and bad schools, etc. That's true everywhere you go.

The teaching of foreign languages in schools has several benefits than just "learning a bunch of words for people to remember". The mere experience of language learning is life changing. For some people a lot and for others not so much. The process of learning a new language helps us develop an awareness of other cultures and understanding them a little better. Don't you agree?

I was not able to find the original survey by the BBC but the GMTV article explains the poll was conducted by School’s Out, A QUIZ SHOW! Is that your most trusted and up-to-date information on research on language learning? Come on Steve, you can do better than that! And also, I doubt the survey measured things like attitudes towards other cultures, better understanding of mother tongue, etc., etc.

Well, as you can see I am as passionate as you are about language learning (AND TEACHING!). I think that saying “stop teaching language is schools” sends the wrong message. If you identify a specific problem in a specific environment (school, district, region, country, etc.) please (I encourage you to) express your opinion constructively, demonstrating knowledge about the system where the problem resides, and a proposal for improvement within the system or changes in the system.

Please don’t just go crying out loud “look there, it doesn’t work! Stop teaching in schools and buy from me now.. buy now… buy from ME now.. I mean now.. call 1-800-…” LOL! ;-)

I think you can find other creative ways to get attention to your product. Just keep emphasizing and explaining (as you have been doing) the many benefits of it. If you message comes out truthful and genuine people will buy into it. Please don’t try to show how good you are by criticizing others. We already have politicians for that. :-)

[Ro]

David will not answer because he is a troll. Trolls are best left ignored.

[Steve]

Paulino,

I do not feel that it is possible to make the case that language instruction in North American schools is effective. I do not doubt that many teachers are dedicated. However, the results are very poor. I suggest it is time to try something else.

I am not impressed with much of what you say, even less so since you are determine to use the argument that because I have invested in developing a new approach to language learning, therefore I am a crass capitalist and therefore what I have to say is purely self-serving and not justified. You do not deal with my points or answer my questions and just unload your prejudice, platitudes and ideology. Yes language learning can be good, enlightening, uplifting, life changing and whatever other slogans you use. The point is, how should it best be done. What should be the role of the classroom? You are unwilling to discuss that.

There is not much point in continuing.

[hiroshi]

I think that it is within Steve's rights to express his opinions on his personal blog. What is wrong with marketing his product and sharing with others his experiences on language learning?

My question for those who get upset about his opinions is: why do you torture yourself, reading his blog?
If I were you, I would just do something that makes me happier instead of leaving negative comments on someones blog.
These people would be frustrated with their lives, I guess.
and If he is gullible enough to buy into whatever Steve says, that is the end of his education.
It is just that he is not mature enough to think for himself, which I think is one of the most important lessons students can learn at school.
Is he trying to brainwash others? oh well, if so, every marketing, as far as I know, is intended for the brainwashing. Some may use sutble means to make customers buy their products, but it is essentially the same thing. Companies promoting their products want people to buy them.

This issue that people are influenced so easily without thinking for themselves and do just what others tell them to do may have something to do with the futility of traditional language schools as Steve pointed out.
For example, students just follow what their teachers tell me to do, study hard to get good grades on exams and what?
after years of instructions at school, the majority of them dont learn to speak languages. Most of us know this tragedy in many coutries without looking at statistics.
So, what are the problems here?
Although I can think of many other reasons,
the major reasons are the following:
These students failing to acquire a foreign language after years( or decades) of study usually have quite a passive mindset from the start that just singing up for a class somehow helps them have a good command of languages, namely teach me attitude.
They are simply too dependent on teachers. or are they poor victims of school systems? that is a rather self defeating idea.

I think that is quite similar to the process of traveling as I am doing now.
for instance, when I join an organized tour, just following a tour guide without thinking anyting, I often find myself not remembering a thing later on.
why? maybe thats because I have a passive attitude that a guid ( a teacher in languag laerning) will do everything for me

On the other hand, when I try as hard as I can to reach a destination in an unfamiliar place, looking it up on my map, seeking the help from kind people along the way, I can find later on that the path that I struggled to get on my own is deeply embedded in my memories.
Is this a peculiar experience that can only apply to me?

the same thing can be true of language learning or a lot of ther learnings.
when I try to take charge of my own learning, trying to be as independent as I can withou schools, teachers supervisions, I can learn a lot more than the times when I had a blind faith in schools.
Besides, it helps me notice so many things about languages, which is difficult to do when I depend on somebody.

In sum, one of the solutions I can think of now is stop shifting responsiblity for our failures at language learning or antying onto somebody else and take responsibility for our learning.
that may be the first and last step???
These are all common sense if we are adults though,,,,

[paulino brener]

to hiroshi,
just in case you were referring to me (i am not sure). i do not get upset by Steve's opinions. I just exercise the freedom to share mine as well. that's what i love most about the democracy of blogs: the opportunity to share and discuss opinions. we all learn from that. in fact, i do enjoy reading this blog, it's not torture and i agree with many things said here but not all.

to steve,
(i have few more points for you) :-)

1) i am not impressed with your answer either. please help me understand. where did i try to make the case that language instruction in North American schools is effective? did i ever mention Canada, US or Mexico? hmm..i can't find any references to that region.

2) i agree. it's time to try something different. and of course i am willing to have discussion about it (i.e role of the classroom AND the teacher, etc.) but...

3) that was not the point of your post. as YOU said "I have experienced and seen the effects of public school teaching on language learning. That is the point of my post." and i just asked: the effects of public school teaching on language learning where? and you are using a quiz show's poll to justified changing a system? i am sure there are more serious surveys/sources out there. probably with similar findings (unfortunately) but (hopefully)with a more objective and scientific approach and without the sensationalists results that media tries to elicit.

4) language learning is good, enlightening, uplifting and life changing. i don't consider those slogans but a truthful part of my experience (and of many others) in language learning. i am sure you have experienced the same while learning 9 (now 10) languages. if not, i hope it happens to you soon!

5) you call my arguments "purely self-serving". and yours are not? i know you need to do your marketing. that's very reasonable for an entrepreneur like you. i am just expressing my disagreement with crashing everyone to make your path.

Steve, don't get me wrong. I have never said, I am not saying and I won't say "Down with LingQ! It's totally wrong". I like the concept. I think it has potential and it's a great option among many other products out there.

cheers!

[jaromir]

Hi Steve,
I'm a freshman here, but allow me a question. I have met many people from "smaller" countries - Sweden, Denmark, Belgium etc. - they were all just brilliant, and not only in English, but often in several languages. So, where is the difference? Is the school system in their countries better than in England, France, USA, Canada?

[Steve Kaufmann]

Jaromir,

Maybe the school system does not matter so much. It is the attitude of the people. In a small country you know that others will not learn your language. In Sweden and Holland they show lots of English speaking television programs in the original version with sub-titles. They do not make a big deal about language learning, it is just expected. Singapore is that way as well. Attitude is the biggest factor, not the school system.

[Edwin]

And Malaysia too. Many people there are at least tri-lingual.