Grammar again

About 5 years ago when we began The Linguist, the predecessor of LingQ, I did a video recording in nine languages on my deck, including one in German, which you can see here. I recently received the following email about this German video.

"Dear Steve,

In your German clip you should have said: "Das hat mir ... vielE Türen geöffnet" and "Probieren Sie meine Methoden doch einmal aus." "Versuchen" doesn't mean "give something a try", but rather "make an attempt" or "try to do".

Grammar rules are indeed indispensable.

MfG

Ed Crosby

Technical translator/interpreter -- English, German, Spanish"

I have on many occasions in the last 30 years looked at German declension tables. It has not made much of an impression on me. It was only when I abandoned any hope of learning which endings belonged to which words in which situations, and simply let myself enjoy the language, that I began to speak German. Yes it is a good idea to strive to speak correctly, or to follow common usage. It is not clear to me that learning grammar rules is the best way to achieve that goal. The brain makes its own rules, according to Manfred Spitzer in a wonderful book on how the brain learns. Reading grammar can help, but it is not the most important thing. Listening, reading and using the language are far more important.

What is more, the question of what words mean and how they are used is not a grammatical question, but one of habit and experience and lots of exposure. I do no aspire, like Ed Crosby, to interpret or translate, I just aspire to communicate. Even if I wanted to interpret or translate, I would not worry about grammar rules until I had a good command of the language.

Comments

[claudio]

Steve,
You hit the nail on the head. Mr. Crosby's vocation requires much more precision than is necessary in normal conversation. The subtle differences between "give something a try," "make an attempt" or "try to do" are meaningless in casual conversation. This kind of hair splitting may keep grammarians up at night, but for most of us such exactness is unimportant as long as our message gets through.

[audio lc]

Steve,
You hit the hammer on the nail. Mr. Cosby's occupation necessitates lots above exactness compared to is required for regularity talking. The vague differentials in between "give something a try," "make an attempt" and "try to do" were no meaning with informal talking. This variety of thread parting perhaps stay glamour people awake during the night, yet for almost of us that preciseness has nonimportant when the message of ours can arrive to the other side.

[Ed Crosby]

Greetings,

At the substantial risk of whipping a dead mule, I will say again: You can learn to speak a language correctly or you can "learn" to speak it incorrectly, and the results you get will vary accordingly. It all depends on your dedication, motivation, and purpose.

I can speak Italian, Portuguese, Dutch and French well enough to order a beer and a pizza -- and maybe even a concubine for the evening -- but I certainly cannot claim to speak those languages in the established sense of the phrase "to speak a language." But I agree: You don't need to speak perfect French to order a beer and a pizza, and as for concubines, well, perhaps not speaking at all would be more to the point...

ELC
www.proz.com/pro/37439

[Liam R]

The subtle differences between "give something a try," "make an attempt" or "try to do" are meaningless in casual conversation.

In English maybe, but in German, the difference between versuchen and ausprobieren is bigger than that, and a native speaker would pick up on the error immediately. Something like one wrong adjective ending in a minute and thirty seconds is no big deal, though. Especially since you have such a good accent, Steve!

For me, looking at declension tables was much more helpful to learning German grammar than simply speaking the language. I think everyone has different learning methods.

[claudio]

Please excuse the second comment. I stepped away from my laptop for a moment, and my little brother tried to copy my posting. He's 5 years old and someday wants to be an English teacher.

[Steve Kaufmann]

Ed and Liam,

I do not suggest that one should not learn to speak a language as accurately and correctly as possible. That is the ultimate goal. One continues to improve but of course it is very difficult to achieve perfection in another language, and I never consider perfection to be the goal, just constant improvement in the ability to communicate.

Looking at grammar explanations and declension tables is part of the learning process, and it helps the brain to get a picture of the language, to understand it and eventually to produce it accurately.

In my view traditional language instruction places too much emphasis on grammar instruction and exercizes and not enough on communication. This is often discouraging and demotivating for learners. Enjoyable input and output activities, with the occasional explanation and reference to grammar and declension tables without worrying about inaccuracies has, at least in my experience, been a better way to learn languages. It is more in conformity with how the brain learns languages in my view.

German is the 7th in order of proficiency of the 10 languages that I claim to speak. I do not count languages where I cannot carry on a conversation on a variety of subjects.

I discuss my approach to language learning in German in a recent podcast interview with "Schlaflos in Muenchen" which you can listen to here. My interview starts at the 23 minute mark or so.

http://www.podsitter.com/wordpress/

[Steve Kaufmann]

Liam,

The usage of ausprobieren and versuchen is not really a grammar issue. I do not think you can come up with definitions and explanations that will clearly delineate how words are use. This has to come from practice, lots of listening, reading and observing, and of course speaking and writing and being corrected.

When I correct writing at LingQ I usually find that an insufficient understanding of the scope of meaning of words is a bigger problem than grammar. That is why at LingQ we focus on saving and reviewing words and phrases,examples that come from the learners own listening and reading.

I have really not spoken much German for the last 15 years or so. If I spent a few months on German at LingQ, listening and reading and interacting with our tutors, I think I would reduce the incidence of inappropriate word usage and even grammar mistakes. However, the process would involve a lot of pleasurable reading and listening and communicating with my tutor, and not any deliberate attempt to cram rules and declension tables into may head.