More on grammar

How much attention do we need to pay to grammar in language learning? In my view, not much. Download Grammar 2

I spend very little time on grammar and I have learned to speak 10 languages. I find that listening and reading, and focusing on words and phrases, is a more productive and enjoyable way to spend my time. I said so in my previous post.

In response, Liam, representing I believe the views of people who like grammar, and  those who teach grammar, made a comment to my previous post in which he said that to learn the subjunctive in Spanish or adjective endings in German we can either

"1) Memorize the tables and use them while speaking, constantly referring to them in your head

or 2) Not learn the grammar and fool yourself into thinking you're learning the language "naturally", which only kids under the age of 5 can do with any proficiency."

But it all depends on our goal. If our goal is to communicate, to understand, to learn lots of words and phrases so that we can express ourselves, maybe the niceties of the subjunctive in Spanish or adjective endings in German do not matter that much. Maybe they can wait.

I tried memorizing declension tables in German, and it was only when I stopped doing that, and focused on listening and reading, that my ability to communicate in German improved. I do not refer to tables and usually find that I can handle the subjunctive quite easily in French and Spanish, although the third person singular of various tenses can give me trouble if I have been away from the language. It just does not come out automatically the way I would like, at times. But I am all right with that and do not think that memorizing tables would help me. Besides it is boring to memorize tables, so I choose not to do it. I get lots of compliments on my German, Spanish and French.

I would say that the kind of language learning proposed by Liam is responsible for the generally poor results that are achieve in class room language instruction. While Liam may learn best that way, I think he is in the minority. I believe, with Krashen, and with Manfred Spitzer, that the brain does not do as well with the explicit explanation and learning of rules and tables, but rather the brain will figure these things on its own, with enough of the right kind of input. Occasional reference to grammar can help, but memorizing the tables, in my experience is an ineffective way to spend one's language learning time.

Comments

[Rollo]

What I find funny here is that I see both sides. My hero in language learning has always been Barry Farber, who advocated a multi-track method of grammar study, reading, listening, speaking, flash cards, writing and using dictionaries.

I can and have benefited from all the above methods. I have found however, that one exercise benefits me above all others. That is, speaking with a native speaker of the target language, who is sensitive to your learning process, understands your level and limitations and who you enjoy talking with. Ten minutes of speaking with that type of person is worth 10 hours of any other method.

[Steve Kaufmann]

Rollo,

The main thing is to do what you like to do. I find language learning is largely a matter of accumulating words and phrases. Most of the time that means listening and reading and studying words and phrases. It is only when I am fairly well along in the language that speaking becomes important. Up to that point, a small amount of speaking to a native speaker goes a long way, since most of the work has to be done by me, alone with the language.

[humberto]

Hi, Steve .. thanks for also putting up the podcast here.. I really enjoyed it ... Do you know what it has been really funny to me ? As you know, I am an Spanish native speaker, and after reading this post I was a little bit embarrassed as I had to admit myself to not having any idea about what "subjunctive" in Spanish grammar means. I actually googled it in order to recognize "subjunctive" patterns in Spanish. What can I say? ..

So, I also believe that the best thing is to do whatever you want to do.

humberto

[Mitch]

Liam wrote: "Not learn the grammar and fool yourself into thinking you're learning the language "naturally", which only kids under the age of 5 can do with any proficiency."

Where do people get these notions? First of all, the claim is for kids under puberty, not age 5. Immigrant kids under puberty, given a normal environment, learn the language to native levels, without accent. Secondly, even over puberty, teens (and adults) can learn to native level without formal grammar study--the only feature that is hard to get native-like is the accent. (e.g., Henry Kissinger--excellent English with a strong accent.) Thirdly, learning rules does not guarantee better performance: the easiest rule in English to learn is to add 's' to the third person singular, but we see long-time speakers (including grammar-trained) who still "drop" the 's'.

If you still think you need grammar (or classes, for that matter) to learn a language, I suggest you read this article about Armando, who learned Hebrew--working in an L.A. Israeli restaurant:

http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/all.html

[Tony]

Very interesting story, Mitch, thanks for the link. I noticed the bottom line says: The crucial variables appear to be comprehensible input and having a good relationship with speakers of the language. I am just wondering, if I am learning a 2nd language by myself, I wouldn't have a "good relationship" with a native speaker, that might explain why my progress is slow :)

[Steve Kaufmann]

Thanks Mitch, and as this article points out, the big nut in language learning is not grammar, but vocabulary.

[Steve Kaufmann]

Tony,

It is usually not possible to have the learning environment that Armando had. But it was also his attitude. He wanted to fit in.Otherwise he would not have learned.

You can create your own language world of content that you like to listen to. And then you listen and listen until you feel ready to speak or have the opportunity or need to speak.Until then you wait, just like Armando. And you have to like the language and want to be a part of it.

I recently spoke to one of our learners from China. She was hoping to study overseas. I asked her if she thought she would have mostly Chinese friends or local friends when she was abroad. She she would have both. She would have local friends in order to improve her English, and Chinese friends because that was more comfortable. She is not like Armando, who apparently genuinely wanted to be a part of his new environment. He had a genuine desire to belong to another group, not just to take advantage of them for a specific utilitarian purpose.

[Roderick Hinn]

When it comes down to grammar, I think what Steve advocates is developing a grammatical feel for the as opposed to learning the rules and memorizing tables. I think he does this by learning the phrases and words how they are related to the overall language, without consciously learning the grammar that one does in a language class (exercises, drills). Steve (and other good language learners) create an environment through the listening and reading to develop this natural feel for the grammar.

Liam proposes sitting down and learning the tables, doing the drills, which I think does not do much.

Steve's goal is to communicate and achieve grammatical "perfection", but I believe one can learn a second language and speak it grammatically well without the drills and tables, because of the grammatical feel that we develop when we learn a language, if we put our minds to it.

Using German as an example (since people think the declensions are so hard), you can either...

Learn them through the memorization or develop a feeling. For example, if you want to say something like "bad weather", you can figure out that Wetter is neuter (Das Wetter) and therefore you have to put schlechtes Wetter (the "es") at the end.

Or you can develop a feeling so you realize the anything else sounds incorrect. schlechtes Wetter. Anything else sounds strange.

Of course, you can't get everything right, but you develop the feeling as you continue to learn the language through reading, and the input.

This can go for any other grammar we "need" to learn including the subjunctive. Personally, I did not learn any subjunctive in French, and learned the grammar after I learned the langauge, but I know that it is "il faut que je fasse" and it isn't "il faut que je fais" because the second one sounds weird.

I think developing a feeling for the language also makes the language stick more. It's like some sort of metaphorical "muscle memory". If you learn the charts, you'll always be conscious of having to conjugate everything correctly, or putting the write adjective endings etc, and I think it actually is an obstacle to your speaking. The learning of words and phrases covers the natural grammar acquisition of a language.

[Steve Kaufmann]

Fully agree Roderick,

That is not say that the occasional review of the grammar is not interesting. In fact you occasionally find something that you had not noticed, or were unsure of. However, I have definitely found that the deliberate study of rules and tables just leaves me empty. It does not penetrate. That time is better spent listening and reading.

How many times have I reviewed which words are masculine feminine and neuter in German or Russian only to find that I cannot connect that to the word, or to the appropriate ending. When I just speak naturally I actually get things right a lot of the time.

I do not think it is just me. I believe that learning naturally is easier for most people. What is more it reduces the anxiety over making a mistake. I know many people who are very fluent in English and, if Russian still cannot get the articles right, or use Swedish or German phrasing with their English. So what? The communicate. Then you have the millions of English speaking North Americans who study language in school and not 1% of them can communicate, although many of them got high marks in their grammar tests.