How to become a good language learner?

Here is the podcast

I think I can say that I am a good language learner. I speak 11 languages and have a good head start on a 12th, Korean. I have observed a lot of other people learn. Other than the obvious need for strong motivation, and the opportunity to use the language, I think there is one absolutely key element that is often ignored.

That key element is the willingness to accept uncertainty, vagueness, imperfection. Most people seem to want to nail things down when they learn. I think that accounts for the popularity of certain podcasts and other content that is not at normal speed and is not authentic.  I think that is why people enjoy Michel Thomas and Pimsleur with their English content. I think that is why people want explanations, most of which they cannot remember or apply.

I have always wanted to get to authentic, native content, as soon as possible. I would never want to listen to something like ESL Podcasts if I were learning another language. Yet these are far more popular than our own EnglishLingQ Podcasts, where Mark and I just ramble on at normal speed.

I am prepared to listen to things and read things that I do not fully understand, in the knowledge that this will lead me to understand and feel the language faster and better and more solidly, than trying to understand everything and get expanations.

So I think the key to successful language learning is to accept uncertainty vagueness and imprefection, for a long long time, and to enjoy it. Maybe that is just me.

Comments

[Claudio]

Steve,

I think the Michel Thomas/Pimsleur type courses have merit for the absolute beginner as they do a pretty good job of keeping the student motivated.

I had always assumed that listening to authentic material at normal conversational speed too early in the (foreign) language learning process would lead to frustration and an inevitable loss of motivation.

On the other hand, some language learning bloggers claim to have obtained good results by just watching hundreds of hours of authentic TV and DVD programming in the target language as their main method of study. What do you think of this approach?

[ed]

I think for a lot of people "nailing down" the language, for better or for worse in terms of their actual proficiency, IS what motivates them.

Those kinds of people feel ambiguity as overwhelming and irritating.

So either you have to teach them a different take on ambiguity, or you have to provide controlled and passive activities which give them confidence but not much else, so that they can stomach a limited amount of more authentic activities.

The latter approach is what always occurs in private language schools. The former is preferable, but is a much harder sell, so it doesn't happen.

[Roberta King]

Hello Steve,
Have to say that I agree with you on this one. Most people I teach are afraid and uncertain when they learn a new language and want to be in control. They want to understand every single word they hear or read. What they fail to realize is that in their native language they don't understand every single word they hear or read, but use their understanding and context to fill in the blanks. They are petrified of making mistakes which in turn gets in their way of learning. I work with my students to give them enough confidence to make mistakes. Once they realize that the sky won't fall if they make a mistake, I find they actually make less mistakes and enjoy using the language more. If we can get across to our students the realization that just like life, language is uncertain, I think we can help them learn better and like it more. The other thing is that many students I am in contact with are working on learning their first foreign language and this is always the worst because they are also learning how to learn the language in addition to learning the language itself. As mentioned in other posts, after learning one foreign language, I think it is easier to learn the next because we have our personal learning methods in place and can apply them to another language. We also accept uncertainty more due to experience.

[Keith]

Isn't TRUST a key issue here? Learner's don't like to follow advice until they can trust that they are actually learning. Those who don't accept uncertainty don't trust that they will learn anything. Or they don't trust that they will learn quickly enough. But they easily trust explanations and having everything clearly identified for them.

[lyzazel]

I don't think one should compare Michel Thomas with Pimsleur because they have very different methodologies...

And why do you think it's bad to nail things down? By doing this you get understanding. And "what you understand, you don't forget" (MT).
It might be true to some extent that children learn language by immersion rather than "nailing it down" but it doesn't matter because we are not children and given we know one language already, we don't need to learn it all from scratch.

Also I think you should stop using the "I know 11 languages so I've got it all figured out" excuse so often. There are people who know more than that and think different. Also it appears that you make your living doing it and you have dedicated a lot of time for language learning so it's natural that you would speak some. Just because you have learnt them this way does not mean it's the best way to go and I think you need other arguments rather than "it worked to me" to argument it.

Me personally, I don't like Listening to something I don't understand very much. Why not get some basics by "nailing it down" first...

[Steve Kaufmann]

Ed,

First of all, the "nail it down" group usually are not able to nail it down. If it s true, as I suspect it is, that accepting ambiguity is important to language learning success, maybe we should stop insisting on "getting it right" in language class, and instead focus on accepting uncertainty.

Keith,

I agree that trust is key. Again our whole language teaching tradition is based on getting the learner to produce what the teacher has just taught. I think this is wrong. I wonder if it is possible to teach a different approach to learning.

lyzazel,

Both Michel Thomas and Pimsleur use English explanations and prompts on their audio. That is similar. As for methodologies, I am not interested methodologies, only content. So, to me, they are the same.

My experience and study of the how the brain learns tells me that we learn languages quite independently of the the effort of teachers to get us to nail it down.

I do not make my living learning languages, but I certainly have spent a lot of time on language learning. That is the only way to learn them. My experience is relevant , but not the only argument.

Some people agree with me. Others, like you, have different opinions. What do you have to back up your opinions? You do not like listening to something you do not understand...how about if you understand 70%? and if you have the text and can look up the meanings and get help, and then listen again, all with a focus on meaning and not on nailing things down?

You strike me as very dogmatic and more interested in criticizing than in providing persuasive arguments. I recognize the style.

[ed]

Steve
I actually agree with you that it not possible to nor is it efficient for language learning

I guess I should have been clearer.

I said that those who want to try to "nail it down" are motivated by the illusion of success in this way. However this illusory method for success is very attractive and much easier to convince people of than the LingQ style.

I think it comes from the fact that most people are not rebellious enough to question the "nail it down" style learning because, from all anecdotes I have heard, and from my experience, it is the dominant style in public schools all over the world.

[Steve Kaufmann]

Of course I also want to nail some things down. I just recognize that I will have a better chance of nailing things down after a lot of exposure to the language.That is when I start to highlight and tag different structures and review them. By then I have a lot of experience in the language, something to refer to.

And of course the Internet abounds in explanations of all kinds. I can get an overview of the grammar of just about any language I want to study, and I can get tables of declensions and conjugations or prepositions to review whenever I want. So I kind of go to these references when I am moved to do so, while spending most of my time on content. Eventually I do nail it down.

The question you have raised is the one that really interests me. How do we change the way languages are taught, from the beginner stage to fluency?

[Steve Kaufmann]

Another major issue is time. I do not have enough time to listen to and read all the things I want to listen to and read in the languages I am learning. I am reluctant to take time away from these activities to try to study grammar which I know to be a largely barren and futile activity.

[Jamie]

The whole mentality has to change if the way languages are taught is to improve. The traditional approach is to measure success by testing, mainly using written tests; and if we make a grammatical slip, then points are deducted. So we are conditioned to fear making mistakes. Maybe instead we should embrace making mistakes, or at least not punish them. Or just not test at all...

[lyzazel]

"Some people agree with me. Others, like you, have different opinions. What do you have to back up your opinions? "

Well, I was just criticizing. The evidence I have is irrelevant in this case. Your evidence is important (which I didn't see except your personal accounts).

Don't get me wrong: I don't wanna start a flame-war or anything. I just thought that since we have this comment thing anyway, perhaps it would be interesting to examine the issues more since we are talking about fundamental things (i.e. selecting your language learning strategy) here.

As for the other stuff, I find it cool that you have learnt so many languages and I have nothing against you personally.

"You do not like listening to something you do not understand...how about if you understand 70%? and if you have the text and can look up the meanings and get help, and then listen again, all with a focus on meaning and not on nailing things down?"

Yup, but first of all, you have to learn to get those 70% first. I.e. you have to get some basics. I think it's too slow to start at a point where you know nothing and just try to figure out stuff. It takes too much time. And, again, it boils down to "get some basics" for me.

[berta]

I TOTALLY agree with you Steve.

I remember the first books I read in english I hardly knew what the book was about but nothing more, all those phrases didn't mean much to me. You just have to keep on reading and listening...

And one day everything comes together, it's like a puzzle that you make with little peaces and when you finish it you see the whole image and then you understand why and how and where. You just have to be pacience.

By the way, your haircut REALLY suits you!. You look more modern and elegant (and young hahahah), nice!!!

[Chris Sarda]

@ Iyzazel

In some of Steve's other videos he describes getting a basic course with simple dialogues and using these to learn the basic words and phrases. He describes these three 3-9 months (3 for a Romance language and 9 for most Asian languages) as the 'boring period' where you're getting used to the language. And although it seems like he wants you to completely avoid grammar in some posts, he often says to have 'the smallest grammar book you can find'.

His focus is to not have grammar and rigid learning as the basis of learning the language and as he's said many times before he's not a linguist or a scientist but this is what worked for him here's the evidence: (then he starts speaking in 11 or whatever languages...)

@everyone else

I think you'll also find that these 'learners' podcasts mostly have people who are teaching their native language and barely know even one other language and have only a passive interest in learning another language.

[lyzazel]

@Chris

Okay, thanks for the explanations.

I just think that these 3-9 months doesn't have to be boring. You could just use interesting tools to learn grammar (such as Michel Thomas) and give you a head start and I don't quite understand why Steve thinks it's not good. I, for one, find these useful and even though explanations are in English, hey, they work. So why not use them?

[Steve Kaufmann]

lyzazel,

We are on entirely different wave lengths. I went to your website. You offer a course in Portuguese called "the future subjunctive". I have no interest in such a course. I have no idea what you are referring to.

I have been learning Portuguese as a minor language along with my Russian. I use content at LingQ. I listen to podcasts. In 3 months I have saved over 1000 LingQs. I now understand interviews from both Portuguese and Russian podcasts. If I need to look up Portuguese verbs or any other aspect of the language I just look this up in google.

I am opposed to the principle of your website which you describe as

"I Kinda Like Languages is a website about language learning where you literally actually learn languages because we teach you."

I think people learn the language if they spend enough time with it, enjoying it, and do a few things to help notice what is happening. Occasionally referring to a grammar book or grammar source is one of these things, but it is minor.

You can build up from ground zero using LingQ, with the help of a small grammar book or internet grammar resources if you want. But mostly you let the language enter you brain gradually adding vocabulary, lots of vocabulary, which you learn and forget and relearn as you discover them in your reading and listening.

And not 3 words a day as you offer on your website

[Steve Kaufmann]

Sorry, I meant Portuguese and Brazilian podcasts.

[Chris Sarda]

Well I've commented on Michel Thomas before and I'm not against it by any means, it does make me feel better about the basic structure of the language, but on the same token it's really expensive for not so much. At the end of the 60 dollar course you're not left with a very good vocabulary.

Where I pay 17 PLN (Polish złoty) which is about six dollars for a beginners course with 28 beginners dialogues and only the target language in the dialogues and I get the same general idea of the structure of the language plus twice as much vocab with just a bit of explanation on the grammar (the Polish in general don't pay much attention to western european grammar when learning west languages) and I can then continue on with authentic material.

lyzazel if you're like me and you just have the weird interest in grammar and structure, that's fine but even Assimil is better than MT as far as that balance between love of grammar/structure and vocabulary.

[lyzazel]

Steve

I agree with you about the grammatical terms. In my site, I want to use courses to explain grammar without using grammar. That's the ideal thing. I did the Future Subjunctive one because it was missing from Michel Thomas - Portuguese courses and the tense is needed to express a lot of ideas.

So, in some way I made it to complete the MT course. If you look at the course, there are practically no grammatical terms used in it (except the term subjunctive which is used in the title).

I understand what you do, though, and I agree a lot with it. I think that to learn a language a) one should learn the basics by learning grammar b) one should continue learning the language by using it. As I understand it, B is something we both agree on where A is where we disagree.

That's cool. The more opinions the merrier. Oh, and sorry if my critiques can seem a little bit harsh at times. I don't mean it that way and I like what you are doing anyway. :)

Cheers,
lyzazel

[Gintaras]

Great message. Just great :)
Often Steve talks about many places for language learning and now I know a lot of them, but I don't like them. I like Steve's approach and I like LingQ

[Gintaras]

By the way. I heard some things from Pimsleurs Lithuanian course. The only thing I can say, that people don't speak that way in Lithuania. It is total artificial.

[Me-here-now]

How dare you all to criticize, you are all dogmatic, you don't know nothing, you this, you that... I'm the master, I'm Steve!!!

What's wrong with you pal?

You just read from an idiot in front of a cam, with a hundred hours of preparation everybody can do that in 30 not just 10 languages.

[Katie]

Steve, I think you are spot on.

I do feel a sense of overwhelming frustration when I listen to a dialogue and I understand 5% of it. But it's exciting when I understand 90% of it. I wouldn't get there if I got mired in the details, however.

[Steve Kaufmann]

katie,

Of course you have to start with easier content. You build up. But I can handle 40% unknown words that way we count them at LingQ whch is the % unknown words based on unique words and not running words. But after after a few months on beginner content it is in your interest to get to authentic content I think.

[algebra_is_also_Language]

Me-here-now
You are all excited because you are reading a few differences of opinion, I guess based on different experiences and different preferred ways to learn. Some people want something like a teacher who will help them in acquiring a new language and include a great deal of conversational exercises, and these people like this and do well that way. Others may like reading and listening to book and online sources, as LinkQ can be one of these online sources, and these people do well this way instead of the other way. Even many language teachers and linguists could have different opinions on what works and why and how.

[~H]

Hi Steve, great article. I think this is definitely a big part of keeping your motivation up. When something doesn't make sense right away, I just accept it and move on. I know I can always go back to it later and it will probably make sense eventually. This attitude has kept me from becoming overwhelmed.

I do listen to native content way above my level. I am studying Japanese, and although I don't understand everything, things like pitch accent have become so much more intuitive. It has helped a lot with recognition and breaking the habit of "translating" everything I hear into English. At native speed you just don't have time for that.

I have to disagree about Pimsleur though. I used Pimsluer as an absolute beginner and it was very helpful in breaking the ice, so to speak. For someone like me (who has never studied a language before), it was a decent starting point. Long as you don't take it as the end all, be all.

[jookieapc]

Hi Steve

I think your article is spot on. I think aiming for perfection in language learning is crippling just as it is in other areas. Then again a perfectionist might right a higher standard if he/she sticks at it for long enough?

I don't think listening to a foreign language without any knowledge of the language does any good. You can't learn unless your mind is able to recognise something and build the pattern in your conscious mind - learning just from your subconscious does not work! (although subliminal CD peddlers might beg to differ).

Anyhow thanks for the tip - I'm gonna use it

[jookieapc]

One other thing Steve, personally I think it's better to focus a bit on proper pronunciation at the beginning. Spend the time learning to say the sounds right in the beginning and they will become the norm as you go further down the path in learning. As in your example - spend an hour repeating the rolled R until you can do it and stick to it.

I agree with you about the ESL podcasts leading listeners too much but.. say you hear a sentence and you don't understand two words. Isn't it better to quickly be able to reference the word you didn't know and store it rather than spend 2 minutes looking it up. It's more efficient to spend your time storing rather than flipping through a dictionary, don't you agree?

[Katie]

Steve,

I started with the beginner Italian (and German) content, and then into the "authentic conversations," or whatever I can find on iTunes. This is the most enjoyable for me, and I keep coming back. It doesn't matter to me if I don't understand every single nuance. I know (believe?) over time it'll make sense. I trust that my brain knows what I'm ready for better than some language learning program. I think that's what's toughest for most to put faith in, that our brains are more powerful than we give them credit for.

Katie

[Eduardo Gomes Junior]

If you want get start to learn a new languege you should start paying attention how did you learn your mother tongue.
I remember back in 1986, when I was 3 years old, my first day at school. I couldn't write, read, I didn't know anything about grammar rules, but I was able to speak Portuguese well. How did I achive it? The response is = Living the portuguese language! How does Tarzan learned the monkeys's language? Res = Living like a monkey! To be honest, I'm 26 and I just don't know anything about grammar rules in Portuguese! But I can speak a very good Portuguese.
This way I got start my English studies back in 2007. I just read, listen everything I think interesting. My start was just listening to ESL PODCAST, which is a very good one. So I realized that the powerfull way of learning is listening podcasts at the normal rate of speech and reading in the same time. I realize that I don't have a good writing and speaking, but I'm very heppy to be able to talk to people who can only speak English. It's a great sense of power. So in my opinion the Linq is one of the most powerful ways of learning a language that I know.