Forgetting and learning languages

Here are a couple of videos I did on this subject recently.

Forgetting languages and German

Forgetting and learning languages

Comments

[Igor]

DIRECT LINKS BELOW

Forgetting languages - German

Forgetting and learning languages

[Igor]

Ooops you've link them in meantime :o)

[Steve Kaufmann]

Thanks anyway Igor, I noticed that I had not made the links live.

[Igor]

Very, very interesting topic, probably crucial for anybody who is really interested in knowing few languages.

Now a bedtime story:

The Hungarian painter Philip de László moved to England in his youth. He married a distinguished English lady and had three sons. He rarely sought out the company of his compatriots, maybe because the Hungarians who had drifted out of the country after World War I had imposed themselves on him too much. On the rare occasions that he did invite over his ex-patriot artist colleagues, such as our sculptor Mr. Strobl, he immediately apologized: he would speak English because he had completely forgotten his native tongue.
One night our Mr. Strobl was woken up by the knock of an elegant valet. Mrs. de László was summoning him, for her husband had suddenly taken ill and kept speaking in some unknown language. Replies in English were made in vain; he would not respond at all. The master sculptor hurried there but, unfortunately, arrived too late. His old friend wasn’t able to speak any more, not even in his native tongue, to which he had found his way back after so many decades, in the hour of his death.

KATÓ LOMB

[Sebastian]

When I was in school, there was a guy who had moved from Russia to Germany when he was 9 years old. He learned german very quick and at the 5. grade he spoke already without any accent at all. At home his parents just spoke german with him. After a few years he claimed that he doesn't speak any russian at all anymore. Once a teacher spoke something to him in russian and he wasn't able to understand anything. I am still astounded how kids can forget their native language just in a couple of years.
My granduncle moved to the US when he was 19 and even after 50 years with rare contacts to the german language he still spoke it very well.

[Kevin Geoghegan]

Bedtime Story. So we don't really forget languages, we might just lose the ability to recall them?

[Marc H.]

I think that Igor's story has validity, but I also think that everyone is different with this.

About three years ago when I lived in America I was conversational in Spanish. I wasn't fluent, but definitely I had made some good progress with the language. A visit to Argentina confirmed this when most interactions and conversations were conducted in Spanish.

However, when I decided to move to Korea to teach English, I put the Spanish on hold indefinitely and began studying Korean. Three years later, I am conversational in the language. I've definitely got momentum as I pursue proficiency; at this point studying any other language would be a distraction to me.

Except for my yearly trip home or an occasional exchange with a Latino friend online or over the phone, I haven't used my Spanish regularly and it isn't what it used to be. I haven't completely lost it, but definitely a conversation is a struggle.

That said, I don't think the Spanish is worth throwing away and at some point I do want to resume using it. If I moved back home and resumed using Spanish regularly (or even practicing it regularly here while in Korea), I'm confident that I could recover my previous ability. I still listen to Spanish music and I can still read Spanish-language Web sites and other content without much difficulty.

I'm aware of some cases in which people speak a foreign language proficiently and retain that proficiency even after ceasing to use it regularly. But then I also know some people (including former students of mine) whose ability (in this case English) has decreased significantly for lack of use. It all depends on the individual and perhaps the method by which the language was learned.

[Meathead Jones]

So your strongest foreign languages are French, Mandarin and Japanese. I find it odd that you think this is simply due to the fact that you have spoken these much more than the others. Having read your book, 'The Way of the Linguist', there is another possibilty which springs to mind here, Steve.

Now, I do wonder whether this is an argument that I want to open up (because I know that you'll strongly disagree with me!) But for me there is a kind of elephant in the room here: the AGE at which a person learns a language!

From your book it is clear that you were still a very young guy (i.e. well under 30) when you first started with French, Chinese and Japanese. But your other languages were learnt when you were 50 and above.

Do you not honestly think that age could be a very big factor in language learning? Might it not be the case that we learn languages much better when we are in our teens and 20s?

(I hope that I'm wrong. I would simply love to believe that my brain has the same strength and speed now as it did when I was a star undergraduate. But I have a nasty feeling that - like other parts of human anatomy - our little grey cells do tend to become less rock-solid with the passing of time...)

[Steve Kaufmann]

Meathead,

No I do not think so. Given the limited amount of time I have put into these recently acquired languages I actually think I am a better language learner today than when I was 16.

I also speak my languages better now than at any time in the past.

[Mark]

Steve, you say that French, Mandarin and Japanese are your strongest because you've spoken them the most. Is it not (partly) because you have *lived* in countries that use these languages?

You currently live in Canada (English/French), and you lived in Japan for a very long time, and I believe also in China/Hong Kong - and conducted business in Japanese and Mandarin while there?

So is it only the speaking, or is the fact that when you live in a country you not only speak but you're *surrounded* by that language. You read, you speak, you hear it *everywhere* and you may even have cause to write - certainly back when you were younger and personal computers and mobile phones weren't around, the written medium was more necessary.

I think living in a country is a huge advantage to learning a language, simply because you are surrounded by it, and cannot easily get away from it. Of course I'm not saying one *must* live in a country in order to learn, but it can certainly be argued that it's more conducive to learning.

[Steve Kaufmann]

Mark,

I did not live in a Mandarin speaking environment but I did visit China a lot and was in the environment. You are probably right. but being surrounded did include speaking.

[Meathead Jones]

Mark said: "You currently live in Canada(English/French)"
---

Now see, if you'd read Steve's excellent little book, you'd know that he actually spent 2 or 3 years LIVING IN FRANCE when he was in his early 20s. Heck, he even studied at an elite university in Paris!

I'm standing by my earlier point: when Steve learnt French, Mandarin, and Japanese he was still a young dude. For me, that's the main reason why these are his strongest languages!

I mean, c'mon Steve, if you'd learnt Russian back then instead of Chinese, then Russian would now be one of your best languages, wouldn't it? And likewise, if you were just starting out with Chinese now, that's the one you'd be finding tough going!

No man can defy the ravages of time...alas! :-o

[Steve Kaufmann]

I do not think so. Leave aside French an Japanese where I lived in the countries. Take Chinese and Russian. If I had the luxury to spend 8 hours a day on Russian, and if I had the pressure of an exam, I would have learned it just as quickly. Since the age of 5v5 I have learned a little or a lot of
Cantonese
Korean
Russian
Portuguese
and improved in my Chinese, Spanish and Italian..whether you believe me or not.

[Igor]

Even if his brain is not fit after all those years of language study which I truly doubt, still his current general knowledge of the world is far greater than that 40 years earlier and he knows far more ways to describe that same world in many languages which gives him an advantage over the young man that have learned French somewhere in time, and despite the fact that he probably sees and listens now less than before, and is a little bit lazy (but who on the earth can blame him for that, most of people on his age are in the rocking chair whole day with their brains shut down for many years now.) he still has a decent advantage over that boy who learned French.

[Igor]

P.S.

Gymnasts retire on the age of 18
Swimmers retire on the age of 25
Footballers on 35
Bodybuilders and boxers on 45-50
Polyglots??? 75 maybe? :o)

Todo es relativo

[Meathead Jones]

Okay Steve, I hear what you're saying. However the only way that you can prove me wrong on this is to get your Russian right up to the same level as your French.

In fact, I hereby formally challenge you to do just that within the next 12 months from the date of today.

I'm serious.

And if you fail, then it will mean that I'm right and you're wrong! (Worse still, it will mean that your brain has started to turn into duck soup!!)

Better get into the lingQ-gym and start pumping some serious iron, buddy!! :-D

[Steve Kaufmann]

Meathead,

You have to recreate the conditions that I had for French. I lived in Paris, went to university, sit in on lectures, read books, wrote essays, had to prepare for oral presentations, listened to radio, read newspapers, argued etc. all in French. In addition I got to fraternize in many different ways with the natives, often in bars and cafes, often returning home on my bicycle at 4 in the morning after a full day of immersion.

Now if someone can offer me those conditions in a city in Russia, I will take you up on it.

[Meathead Jones]

Now that's a real shame Steve - I didn't figure you for a guy who would chicken out of a language challenge!

Sure you would have to recreate the conditions of your time in France - but that's what LingQ is all about, right? And as the owner of the system, you could even arrange to have a whole number of LingQ Russian tutors, if necessary.

(Besides, if a rich guy like you can't afford to spend some quality time over in Russia, then who could!?)

Cut the phoney excuses and pick up the gauntlet, Sir! :-D

[Steve Kaufmann]

Sausagehead,

You kind of have got me thinking about it. I am going to look up these Russian dating websites and see what I can do.

[Meathead Jones]

Don't forget Steve, 'Sausagehead' is still one helluva lot better than 'duck-soup-brain'!! :-D