When should we start to speak in a foreign language?

When should we start to speak? When we want to. Here is a video that addresses some of the issues from the discussion with Benny the Irish Polyglot.

Posted via web from LingQCentral

Comments

[Anglophobe Jones]

Is it possible to speak pretty well after two months? In my opinion it all depends on the language in question, and on what we mean by 'pretty well'.

I believe that most native speakers of English who spend two months in (let's say) Spain, doing nothing other than learn the language, would have some functional 'everyday' ability after about 8 weeks. He/she would be able to greet people, express simple opinions, go into shops and ask for things, order meals, etc. However he/she would not - after just two months - be able to have a complex discussion about a 'serious' topic.

If we are talking about languages which are more complex or exotic to English speakers (Japanese, Arabic, etc) then most people would still be at a very basic active level after two months, I think.

(It is understood that passive ability to understand is - in all cases - always far ahead of active ability to speak.)

[Chris/blindside70]

In the end, I still think the two of you are pretty close. Steve may say that one should wait to speak, but what he's really saying is one should wait to speak when they're ready. Benny likes to speak, and there are people like him that are always ready to start even if their conversations are the less meaningful ones about the weather.

But one note about when Steve says it's important to know what is being said to you. In Poland I had my first real experience with trying to learn a language from scratch and I was lucky enough to be in the country. I started like everyone starts, with traditional teaching.

In three weeks and 150 Polish Zl later I barely knew how to say hello and understood that there were these things called 'noun cases'. I continued this way for months and when my mother in law would say something relatively simple about food being and to go to the kitchen and eat when I'm ready, I just couldn't follow, the simple fact that I couldn't understand her simple statement made it pointless that I knew how to "I am American" and "She has a doll" with the proper noun declinations.

No it would have been much better if I sucked up all those words, even if I couldn't yet use them myself, so that I could at least understand what my mother in law was saying, then I could use whatever Polish I may know to answer in some way rather then say "Przepraszam, nie rozumiem" (I'm sorry I don't understand) like I did the first 8 months of living there.

With that said, I did wuss out and stay in a nonspeaking bubble for longer than I should have, in that respect I agree with Benny and ajatt guy, I should have been 'ready' to start speaking far sooner...

[Chris/blindside70]

In the end, I still think the two of you are pretty close. Steve may say that one should wait to speak, but what he's really saying is one should wait to speak when they're ready. Benny likes to speak, and there are people like him that are always ready to start even if their conversations are the less meaningful ones about the weather.

But one note about when Steve says it's important to know what is being said to you. In Poland I had my first real experience with trying to learn a language from scratch and I was lucky enough to be in the country. I started like everyone starts, with traditional teaching.

In three weeks and 150 Polish Zl later I barely knew how to say hello and understood that there were these things called 'noun cases'. I continued this way for months and when my mother in law would say something relatively simple about food being and to go to the kitchen and eat when I'm ready, I just couldn't follow, the simple fact that I couldn't understand her simple statement made it pointless that I knew how to "I am American" and "She has a doll" with the proper noun declinations.

No it would have been much better if I sucked up all those words, even if I couldn't yet use them myself, so that I could at least understand what my mother in law was saying, then I could use whatever Polish I may know to answer in some way rather then say "Przepraszam, nie rozumiem" (I'm sorry I don't understand) like I did the first 8 months of living there.

With that said, I did wuss out and stay in a nonspeaking bubble for longer than I should have, in that respect I agree with Benny and ajatt guy, I should have been 'ready' to start speaking far sooner...

[Русские идут]

"in order to learn to speak well, you have to speak a lot"

you could not know this because:

1. you've never tried the input-only variant, maybe it works and if it does that would mean avoiding output and spending that time on input is more efficient learning;

2. you got no scientific evidence to support this claim but there are studies supporting the opposite of this.

Why should we listen to you?

You always praise the role of the input in your language studies but you always expect output (more exactly, speaking) to solve your problems.

[Русские идут]

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/thelinguist.blogs.com#

congratulations on this. 33.1% of your visitors are from Russia, not many of them are joining the debates here though. :(

[Friedemann]

Jones said: "(It is understood that passive ability to understand is - in all cases - always far ahead of active ability to speak.)"

From my Chinese studies I can say that after more than one and a half years of exposure to Chinese, five month of which are in China and a lot of blood sweat and tears (3 hours intensive study every day) I still struggle in a lot of situations to understand what was said. I think my own abilities to speak are far ahead of my ability to understand.

I fully agree with Steve on this: Understanding is everything, if you understand, you are on top of the situation no matter how well you can express yourself. Furthermore, if you understand, you learn so much faster through listening.

Chinese in two month? I think it cannot be done for a western European like me with average talent for languages.

Friedemann

[Steve Kaufmann]

Русские идут

Alexa only tracks people who have installed Alexa. According to google analytics Russian visitors account for 3.8%. This puts them in 5th place just ahead of Germany and Brazil and behind Japan. US, Canada and UK account for about 45% of visitors. So Russians are probably the second largest group of non-native English readers of the blog. I welcome them as readers and as contributors to our debates here.

[Steve Kaufmann]

Русские идут

I have spent 4 years on Russian, 99% input based. I look forward to going to Russia and joining a Russia tour group on the Volga or to the Golden Circle. I know that in a few weeks of constant speaking I will take a major step forward. I will put into practice what I have learned. I will discover where many of my gaps are. I will be focused on listening to what real people, people who are talking to me, are saying. I will learn new words and expressions from them and use them. The way they speak will have credibility because they are using words in direct conversation with me.

I did a lot of input learning of Portuguese for months ( I know Spanish) but one month in Portugal propelled my Portuguese forward. Two weeks in China, traveling daily with my book publisher's staff, and giving lectures in Chinese, took my Chinese to a new level. I have had this experience many times.

When you are ready, that intense exposure, including speaking, really raises your speaking ability.That has been my experience, which I value much more than your "scientific evidence".

[victor]

I believe that progress in language learning can be measured in terms of tens of years, not in months or week. How much time does a person need to have a good command in his or her own language? To be independent member of sosiety he or she needs about 15 years. To become a professional he needs about 10 years more. Why then people think that they can cope with another language in a matter of weeks? With such approach you can only fool around with language for some time, and what is the purpose of all this?

[Anglophobe Jones]

Friedemann said:
"From my Chinese studies I can say that after more than one and a half years of exposure to Chinese [...] I still struggle in a lot of situations to understand what was said. I think my own abilities to speak are far ahead of my ability to understand."
---

Well, it's possible that Chinese may be harder to 'tune into to' than many languages - due to those pesky tones?
On the other hand, perhaps you are suffering from a kind of Euro-culture shock here? Maybe you need to break down some psychological barriers? Maybe you need start carousing the local scene a little? Maybe you need to track down some quality females who only speak Chinese? (Obwohl... eine, die Französisch kann, wär auch nicht schlecht!:-D)

Fiedemann said:
"Chinese in two month? I think it cannot be done for a western European."
---

We can agree about that, buddy.

[Steve Kaufmann]

I think it is normal to struggle in certain situations even after years. I think that Friedemann probably has quite a good command of Chinese, but language learning is a long road.

[Friedemann]

Jones,

the one big problem for me in China are not the young ladies but rather the rediculous number of homophones. Since the inventory of syllables in Chinese is rather limited, many words and phrases sound very simlar, Furthermore many syllables sound very similar, e.g.: shi, si, zi, ci, guan, guang, chen, cheng... not easy!

A syllable like "shi" has over 30 different characters if you count all the different sound variants of it. In fact, a Chinese scholar onece wrote a little story only using the sound "shi" which is perfectly clear when you read it, but is incomprehensible when you listen to it,

Friedemann

[Steve Kaufmann]

Don't give up, Friedemann. It takes a lot of listening and reading.At least it did for me.

[Jacob]

I agree that you need to be able to understand before you can confidently speak. I also focus on input. When I was learning Spanish, I was in Mexico (and still am). I could understand faily well within a month, but I couldn't speak. But I started out by saying simple phrased, like "yes" "no" "I don't know" "I like it/don't like it" and so on. This allowed me to survive conversations without saying too much. So since I wasn't speaking, conversations were just more input. I didn't force mysfelf to speak, but in about six months I was conversational, and in under a year I was fluent.

Even though I live in the country, and study French and Italian, I still dedicate several hours a week to reading and listening to interesting content in Spanish, to build up my vocabulary and understanding of the form of the language.

[Jacob]

I think it can be highly motivating to 'speak' some things in the language from the start. For example, I just started learning French, and many of the sounds are very different from Spanish and English. When I practice pronouncing a word and can finally imitate the sound correctly. I feel that's a huge accomplishment. I say the word or phrase I learned to a native speaker, and when they can understand me me, Yupee! Very encouraging.

However, I don't worry at all about 'communicating' in the language. THAT form of speaking can always come later. I know that if I have a big enough passive vocabulary, and I can understand by reading and listening, and I can pronounce the words reasonably well, then when I'm in a situation where I need to speak the language, I'll be able to get by. If I'm ever in a situation where I need to speak on a regular basis, then I'll become fluent quickly, because I've already "learned the language."

[Jean-Paul Setlak]

I think we should start speaking a new language right away, but with one important specification: ALONE. When I learn a new language, I think of myself as an actor learning a role, creating a part. I always want to rehearse and practice my lines before I go on stage. I imagine and roleplay conversations and functional exchanges with my highly forgiving imaginary friends. I like to record myself and critique my performance. So as soon as I know 25 nouns, 20 verbs, 12 adjectives, 7 conjunctions and 6 prepositions, I am ready to rock 'n roll. By myself.

HOWEVER, and most importantly; before I do any serious speaking, I immerse myself in the sound system. I MUST feel very comfortable with the basic sounds and intonation of the new language. I must have a feel for its music and spirit. I pursue this end relentlessly with recordings. Good comfortable pronunciation is vital to my efforts. Until I achieve it, nothing else matters.

When I see natives - after I feel I have the sounds down - I will try to interact - using the contexts I have rehearsed. For as long as I can keep things going. Initially, just saying "Hello and I love your language" is enough.
When I practice alone, I speak slowly and deliberately. I do my best to use excellent pronunciation and natural diction and affect. This codes the act of speaking confidently and calmly into my psyche....So when I interact with natives... it feels comfortable and familiar. Sometimes the conversation becomes a mess and we hopefully all laugh together.
But I agree with Steve that forcing yourself to interact before you feel ready is stressful and therefore undesirable. I want to have fun and feel great about my exchanges.