Memory and language learning.

How important is memory in language learning? Not very I say here in this video.

Posted via web from Lingosteve's place

Comments

[Vincent]

Memory is an advantage, but not a necessity.

[Damian]

I think memory is more important at the start of a language and fades as one becomes more comfortable with it. In my Dutch studies (just started a couple of months ago) I find myself faced with a huge list of things I want to learn: the 1500 words of the GCSE recommended vocabulary, an additional 1500 Dutch sentences downloaded from Anki, the flash-card program, the dialogs and example phrases from Assimil, etc. Like many skills before they become automatic, they have to be consciously, carefully worked on. When you _start_ driving a car, you _are_ thinking back to the manual: How do I turn the windshield wipers on, where's the left turn signal, I need to adjust the mirror, and so on. When you start typing, you learn the drills and you have to remember which finger hits the right key on the keyboard. I just "think" what I want to type, and my fingers do the rest, including fixing typos..

And so it goes with languages. Before writing or reading or speaking becomes automatic in your target language, it has to be done carefully, step-by-step by the non-automatic part of the brain. You need to remember which ending goes with which subject, the ordering of the sentence, the spelling of even common words. And it's at this beginning stage that it's easy for somebody to be overwhelmed with the rules and spelling and grammar and everything they just don't yet have in order to produce even simple utterances. This is stage where the input only people say "If you don't yet know enough, don't try to produce". The large time scales and effort involved over the long period just don't work for the people who have started and see only the huge amount of memorization as the one Great Wall of China standing between themselves and fluency.

This requirement for large amounts of memorization goes both for input and output. I'm reading a Tintin (Kuifje) BD in Dutch at the moment and it's really slow going. I just don't have the vocabulary. And that's why I keep looking at the word lists and thinking "if only I could memorize those 1500 words, this would be easier."

However, just cramming the lists of words isn't sufficient. Previous attempts at memorization with poorly constructed flash-cards gave me vocabulary but no idea how to use them: I couldn't put them in a sentence, but I knew the meaning. Similarly, some flash-cards I had would have been useful for cross-word puzzles (definition -> word) but again, not for speaking.

This comment is a bit rambling because I'm sort of typing as I'm thinking, sort of brainstorming into the comment box. I think I might put an edited version of this reply on my blog. Your posts recently have certainly given me a lot to think about, including my own language learning strategies, methods, and goals.

[Jean-Paul Setlak]

Good podcast , Steve.
I very much agree with you. I have dutifully tried to memorize a lot of vocab in my life. I have used many different tricks and association techniques with - overall - disappointing results. I do much better with grammar memorization because it is a smaller field to absorb and it contains a hierarchy of information.

For new vocab I find it much easier to remember in a real context: someone gives me a new word when I really want/need it.

Exposure, exposure, ENJOYABLE exposure seems to be the key to absorption and access. I too love flashcard automated reviews: whole sentences only! They incorporate self-testing, which seems to be another primordial element in good, systematic, automatic absorption.

I just read somewhere (?) that 15-20 exposures are normally required for a new word to slide into memory. So let it be fun!

The instant availability of videos/podcasts online makes it so easy to constantly get exposure to new, fascinating content in any area of our choice.

I am, for example, addicted right now to yoga videos in Chinese. My mind is becoming one big yoga class, filled with beautiful images and tranquil voices. It's a far more efficient way to learn movements and body parts than mind-numbing lists. And it's always imbedded in natural language, therefore filled with great living examples of language.

The main problem with trying to "memorize" (SRS flashcard systems aside) is that it's horribly boring, numbing work. It promotes fatigue and discouragement. So we somehow quit and "forget".

[Valina]

One of my most brilliant college professors always said that memorization is the lowest form of thinking. Although you are burning brain energy while trying to memorize, you are not doing much thinking at all.

Personally I find memorizing word lists and grammar rules to be stepping into your car, putting it in neutral and stepping on the gas. Sure you are using a lot of energy, but you are not going anywhere.

[Learn Russian Audio]

Leaning and reading are two most concept of the learning languages.
I like you idea.
Thanks for blog.

[Damian]

Finally got around to my cleaned-up response: http://dgryski.blogspot.com/2010/05/memory-requirements.html

[Steve Kaufmann]

Damian,

1) Please try to remember how to spell my name. You regularly spell it Kauffman. Please check the spelling.

2) You say in your post that "Back to Steve's claim about memorizing. He favours instead "repeated exposure until the material has been absorbed", which sounds a lot like memorization to be. And he's also recently been going on about how wonderful his flash cards on his iPod touch are. Again, memorization."

No, memorization means a deliberate attempt to remember. When I read, or listen or review flash cards I am not making any conscious effort to remember. I invest a little time on each of our LingQ flash cards, editing the captured phrase, looking at it, thinking about it, and I always click "got it" and move on. I might got through the list once of twice. I know I will see them again as part of the word list of some other content item. When I am satisfied that I know a word or phrase, or do not want to see it again, I change the status to 4.

You also say "Steve is being an armchair quarterback. From the safety of his living room, it's easy to say that 8 months of listening to audio books in Portuguese before trying to speak is a good idea. If he were living in Portugal, his need to communicate would be much stronger and real-life would not afford him the luxury of an input-only timespan."

When I lived in Japan, the only time I had to learn a language on the ground, so to speak, I spent most of time on input. I spoke when I had the chance, but I worked deliberately at my listening and reading, just as I do now. Of course I learned faster than I do with just one hour a day of Russian.

[Damian]

Thanks for your response and your clarifications. I see now that we mostly disagree on the amount of conscious effort put into the task of getting something to stick. For you, since there is little effort, the task is not memorization but instead review (which is fair). For me, the task of reviewing something I'm not 100% certain of is a stage of the memorization process, regardless of conscious effort put in to memorization. Although I must admit my current learning style leans much more towards the conscious effort side of things. I haven't yet found the Zen of listening to something I only partially understand... :(

And oops, sorry about the spelling. I've gone back and fixed your name in all of my posts. One 'F', two 'N's. I'll add it to my flash card stack ... :)

[Learn Russian Audio online]

I really like the way to improve himself with practice of Sharpe the mind.
I need to learn more languages for my hobbies. But can you tell me Learn How to Speak Russian with more efficiency.
Thanks for blog.

[coach suitcase]

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