The Linguist - language learning should be fun

Seven reasons why I would not use Rosetta Stone.

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Let me begin my saying that I have never used Rosetta Stone. My son, Mark, played professional hockey in Japan for a few years. His team gave him Rosetta Stone to learn Japanese. He tried it and found that it was boring and did not get him very far.

I decided to do some research on the net. Most reviews that I found seemed to have been done by people connected with Rosetta Stone. I am not surprised. Rosetta Stone are excellent marketers for which I salute them. They are not only promoting their product, they are promoting an awareness that people can learn languages on their own.

The best summary of the Rosetta Stone method I found was the following.

The most important component of the Rosetta Stone software-based method is what I call "a four squares screen". The user is presented with a page that shows four pictures of various objects or entities. A prerecorded phrase or word is played back and the user must click on the square that contains a visual answer to the question or best illustrates the concept. If the user answers correctly a little "ding" is heard, a check-mark appears on the screen and the program advances. That's all folks!

So, why does the Rosetta Stone method work? At the very center of the Rosetta Stone approach is the idea of constant encouragement. Every step of the way the user receives positive feedback from the program. Rosetta Stone takes you through a rapid succession of multiple choice questions. Given that there are only four options per question it is not difficult to answer every question even if you don't get it right away. This process turns into a series of gratifying experiences.

This was contrasted with the usual language learning experience where the reviewer felt that we do not know how we are doing.

As a result we have uncertainty, perception of poor performance and general lack of success. A user is much more likely to quit such a course, and it should be known that not quitting is probably the single most important requirement when learning a foreign language

My reaction to the reviews that I read was that I do not think I would want to use Rosetta Stone. Here are seven reasons.

1)  I do not like answering multiple choice questions at the computer. It is not communicating. I might do it once or twice but would not continue. I would not do it daily. I need to connect with a language I am learning daily, in order to learn.

2) Most of my learning activity takes place during dead time. I mostly listen while running, driving, doing the dishes, waiting line etc.. I also read while waiting or as a relaxing activity.  If I had to sit at the computer in order to learn I would not do a lot of studying. I just do not have the dedicated time.

3) I do not believe that I can permanently learn words, whether using pictures or other techniques. I know I am going to forget them. In a way I am not interested in learning the word for "red" or "house". I know that I have to be exposed to so much language content, in audio and text, that gradually it all starts to have meaning. I am not conscious of learning and forgetting specific words, but I know I am doing it. I know I have learned words because I can understand more and more. I know I am forgetting because I am constantly unable to remember the most elementary words.

4) I find it difficult to learn words and phrases that are divorced from a larger story or context. Isolated words and phrases do not connect with my brain. I remember words and expressions as part of larger stories that I remember. I often remember when and where I was listening to many of these stories.

5) When I start learning a language, the gratification that I experience comes from the fact that  I start to be able to tell when words begin and end, and then soon after start to make sense of short episodes that used to be just noise for me. That is all the feedback that I need. I do not find the uncertainty a problem. It is the feeling of the "fog lifting", the uncertainty turning into more and more clarity, that is so satisfying in the study of another language.

6) I learn languages with the goal of being able to communicate, to understand what is said, and to be able to express myself. That is a long road. I have the impression that Rosettta Stone only takes you a very short way. I do not see it as a useful or necessary step.

7) I feel that a lot of listening to interesting content is a better start than doing multiple choice questions. I am in a hurry to engage with the language, real language situations, and to let my brain get used to it.

What has been the experience of others? I know that I am not impartial, but I have tried to be honest. I do recommend the "Teach Yourself" series and the "Colloquial" series. I would not recommend Rosetta Stone.

Limits to Krashen?

Here is the podcast.Download Krashen challenged

Beniko Mason has some wonderful articles on research on language learning showing that reading is more efficient in language learning than deliberate instruction. I am indebted to Igor the Macedonian for the link.

He will now attack me as I explain why I like to do a little Krashen plus "n". In other words I believe a little speaking and writing and word review, and even a little grammar review, have their place in making the brain more attentive. As long as we do not expect to learn the grammar or the new words, as long as we are not hung up about speaking and writing correctly, these deliberate learning activities help, as long as they do not get in the way of listening and reading.

I also make the point that the interest in the content is more important than making the reading easy. I am not a fan of graded readers, for example, at least for my own learning. A little bit of easy content to start with and then let me at the authentic stuff as soons as possible. I believe that LingQ makes that jump easier, and that is why we developed the system the way we did.

So go ahead Igor, and hit me. I can take it.

English has a million words?

English is supposed to have a million words. I was sent this list by a friend.

English    999,985

Chinese    500,000+ (various dialects)

Japanese    232,000

Spanish    225,000+

Russian    195,000 ( should be easy to learn!!)

 

Source: Global Language Monitor

To me this is not very useful information. All languages have words that nobody uses. I find that you need more words to make sense in Russian than in English, but then I have not counted.

How to become a good language learner?

Here is the podcast

I think I can say that I am a good language learner. I speak 11 languages and have a good head start on a 12th, Korean. I have observed a lot of other people learn. Other than the obvious need for strong motivation, and the opportunity to use the language, I think there is one absolutely key element that is often ignored.

That key element is the willingness to accept uncertainty, vagueness, imperfection. Most people seem to want to nail things down when they learn. I think that accounts for the popularity of certain podcasts and other content that is not at normal speed and is not authentic.  I think that is why people enjoy Michel Thomas and Pimsleur with their English content. I think that is why people want explanations, most of which they cannot remember or apply.

I have always wanted to get to authentic, native content, as soon as possible. I would never want to listen to something like ESL Podcasts if I were learning another language. Yet these are far more popular than our own EnglishLingQ Podcasts, where Mark and I just ramble on at normal speed.

I am prepared to listen to things and read things that I do not fully understand, in the knowledge that this will lead me to understand and feel the language faster and better and more solidly, than trying to understand everything and get expanations.

So I think the key to successful language learning is to accept uncertainty vagueness and imprefection, for a long long time, and to enjoy it. Maybe that is just me.

Learning words and the use of the dictionary.

Learning words is the key task in language learning, but the dictionary is over-rated as a language learning tool. Here I talk about why I feel this way.

Teaching the present continuous in English

Can we teach the "present continuous" in English? Is it not just picked up naturally, and even if it is not, does it matter? I know fluent English speakers who say "I am living in Germany since 4 years" , it is not correct yet these people communicate very well in English at a sophisticated level.

If we create a lot of rules about it does that help the learner or confuse the learner?  I know that in learning Russian, the only rules that helped were the very simple ones such as "god" "goda" and "lyet" for years depending on whether it is one, 2-4 or 5 and more. All the rest of the rules are a fog.

Here are parts of a discussion among teachers about the present continuous. First a justification for focusing teaching efforts on this point and then a discussion of how to explain it to the class ,most of whom are immigrants from Latin America.

  I wonder how useful it is to teach this, as opposed to just letting learners notice the language, and helping them to notice, in other words saving words  and phrases the way we do at LingQ.

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The use of the progressive is a linguistic redundancy, as its use is not necessary to create meaning which you cannot create without it.  American Sign Language and Hawaii Creole (“Pidgin”) English, for example, do not use the progressive; neither do German, Turkish, or French, but Spanish does.

 

What I believe, however, doesn’t attain the threshold of challengability is the need to help our students become viable participants in life domains they are aspiring to engage in.  There are very many speech communities in which the use of the present continuous is an implicit if not explicit requirement.  In the absence of its use, one’s English would be considered “substandard.”

 

Might you have second thoughts about seeing a native English-speaking doctor who doesn’t use the present continuous? 

 

So, we have to differentiate between linguistic systems (all equal in their own right), and sociolinguistic considerations that tie in with where are students wish to go…

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I tell my students that there are three ways to construct future time in English (which doesn’t, in a sense, have a future tense at all because the spelling of the main verb doesn’t change but remains in its base form):

 

The “certain future,” which uses the simple present progressive construction, as in I’m going home after work. (I don’t call the non-perfect form of the progressive only  progressive, because it fails to create a dichotomy with the perfect progressive, so I latch “simple” in front of it – that way we have four aspects or “perspectives,” as I refer to them: simple, simple progressive, perfect, and perfect progressive.)

 

The “probable future,” which uses the “going to + verb”, as in It’s cloudy, it looks like it’s going to rain (therein lies the “plan,” in this case the weather’s plan).

 

The “pure future,” which uses “will + verb,” as in I will travel to France one day, it’s my life’s dream.

Hi, all.

The point  about how “going to” when used to show an action in the near future is not recognized unless pronounced as “gonna”  is interesting and important, I think. And it brings up the intersection of oral and written English skills development.

 

We do not pronounce “going to” the same way when it is used as the main verb. We do not say “I’m ‘gonna’ [going to] the store” – although in normal, relaxed speech we may very well say “I’m ‘gonna’ go [going to go] to the store. ‘Gonna” occurs in the near future use of ‘going to’ as a result of the stress, timing, rhythm, and intonation patterns of English.

 

So, when practicing present continuous in class – it seems we need to be on top of listening and speaking and reading and writing of the verb forms.

 

Any thoughts on this? How does that resonate with your experience when you’re working with this form?

I don't teach "be going to" with present continuous.  I teach it with future.  It's not necessarily a near future issue.  "I'm going to go to China."     It implies a definite plan, not sure when, but clearly future.  When I teach future "be going to" with the reduced pronunciation, I do point out that reduction cannot be made when "be going to" is used for present tense destinations (i.e, I'm going to the store) because there is not another meaning carrying verb (although not necessarily in those terms :-))

Whose fault is it that I cannot speak the language?

If I lived in a country for ten years ( Mexico, Japan, France, Russian whatever) and could not speak the language, whose fault would it be? I think it would be mine, only mine. Here is a question or a comment to one of my earlier posts from a language teacher, and my answer. What do you think?

The question

I have a question for all of you. I teach English in Canada to immigrants. Some of the students in my classes have been in Canada for more than 5 years. They were taught by a teacher who used a lot of talking and writing but very little grammar instruction and, I think, not much correction. After all this time, their English is still very poor. One student speaks very broken English and understands just basic conversation. The others (8-12 years in Canada) understand fairly well but their speech is very difficult to understand because of their incorrect pronunciation and poor sentence structure. When they speak quickly I can't understand them at all.

Any ideas? How can I help them break the bad language habits they've formed? It isn't even really their fault, some of them are very diligent students.

My answer

It would be helpful to know how many students are in your class and how many hours they are in class, how literate they are, what they are interested in etc.

I do not think you will like my advice.

First of all their language skills, after 5 to 12 years in Canada, are entirely their responsibility in my view. Until they recognize that they will not improve. That is where you need to begin. Their attitude towards the language, their determination to improve, their belief that they can learn to speak fluently, these are the keys to their success. Your first goal is to try to inspire this kind of attitude in them.

Second, what they do outside of the classroom is much more important than what they do in the classroom. There is considerable research to indicate that correction and grammar explanation do not do much, so I doubt that the lack of it, over a period of 5 years, is the reason their
language skills are poor.

In my view, they need to listen a lot, several hours a day, to English. The best way is to load content of interest to them on an MP3 player and always carry it with them. Listen every spare moment, while doing chores, while commuting etc..They should choose content they like, where they like the voice, and listen. They need to listen to the same content over and over, imitating. They need to notice words and phrases, save them, review them and imitate them. When they do write and speak, their corrected phrases should be added to this list.

They should also take every opportunity to watch TV listen to radio, read the newspaper and talk to people around them in English, not their native language, at least for a concentrated period of 6 months or more.

If I were a classroom teacher using LingQ

How to use LingQ in the classroom? Here is my answer to the email I posted earlier.

If I were a classroom teacher using LingQ I would set out seven principles and seven requirements.

Seven principles.

1) You have to understand a language well before you can hope to speak it well.

2) The best way to learn to understand is to do a lot of listening and reading, the main activities in language learning. Your hours of listening and words of reading are the key measurable activities.

3) To understand what you listen to and read, you need to learn many words. The number of words you know is the most important measurable achievement.

4) What you do outside the classroom is much more important than what you do in the classroom.

5) You will learn much better if you enjoy your listening and reading. Find things of interest to listen to and read.

6) When you speak and write in the language you should make mistakes, even repeat the same mistakes.

7) If you notice your mistakes, and think about them, you will start to notice the language better when you listen and read. Slowly you will start to communicate better.

Seven requirements.

1) You are all obliged to achieve the weekly LingQ targets in you profile. We can all see each other's profile. There will be recognition for the learners with highest Activity Index every week.

2) You are free to read and listen to whatever you want in order to meet your targets. I will also be assigning specific required items for study, in addition.

3) We will discuss the assigned items in class. At the end of the class I will draft a list of all the misused words and phrases. These will be posted on a website to be downloaded and imported as content into LingQ.

4) You will write one submission per week. You can write answers to my questions on the assigned items, or you can write freely about subjects that interest you. You will import the corrected writing into LingQ and save the words and phrases that caused you trouble. 

5) Every three months you will select your best 3 writing assignments, and import them into a collection in LingQ to be called My Writing Portfolio. This is a record of your improving ability to express yourself. 

6) Every three months you will also record an answer to an oral question, which will also be added to your Portfolio.

7) Every three months there will be a computer based cloze test on your known words in LingQ.  Only if you score over 95%, wiill your LingQ known words total be considered confirmed. Your profile and cloze test results will be part of your profile.  Your Portfolio will form the basis for your grade at the end of the year.

More on Spaced Reptition Systems

I would be interested to hear which of the many SRS systems are the most popular, and how they are used.  I am particularly interested to hear how different kinds of information are learned using these systems.

I mean there are different bits of information that are learned using these systems. Which are easiest to learn this way? How many do you look at daily?

1) An isolated fact. The capital city of Finland - no understanding, no context required.
2) A mathematical or scientific theory. Understanding required
3) A Chinese character: A major effort required to learn a totally different writing system, in addition to having to learn the language
4) A word (passive knowledge). Some easier than others, to learn, and forget. Depends largely on frequency of exposure in contexts other than SRS system itself.
5) A phrase (passive knowledge), Easier than words because a collection of words some of which are usually known.
6) Sentence (passive knowledge) really just a long phrase, but a more unique collection of words.
7) 4)-6) again but active knowledge

8) A grammar rule or word ending as a rule.

9) A grammar pattern as part of frequently reviewed phrases or sentences

I save about 1000 LingQ per month at LingQ, from my reading and listening. I save words, and I save phrases, which I often tag for grammar or other purposes, for later review.

This would correspond to 1000 cards. When I consider that my Flash Cards in LingQ (we also have a SRS system) can be reversed (English Russian as well as Russian English in my case ), this could be 2000 cards the way Anki counts them.

I know that my deliberate word and phrase review in LingQ is very much on a random sample basis. I cannot review all my saved words. I do not do it on a thorough basis. There is just not enough time, since I spend most of my time listening and reading.

I am happy with that and my word and phrase knowledge is growing. How much time would I have to spend daily on word and phrase review if I were a disciplined SRS user?

Resonance and learning

In my previous post I explained that I am more partial to listening and reading, rather then working with SRS (spaced repetition systems). When I do review vocabulary, I prefer to control what I review. I either look at words and phrases from recently studied content, or I look at my high frequency vocabulary, or I look at lists tagged for certain grammatical issues, or I search by root words or components, or I just go at my list of words alphabetically, at random.

On the other hand I know that many people swear by SRS systems, and we certainly want to enable people to use their favourite SRS systems with LingQ. It is on our list.

 I guess the important thing is to do things that we like to do. The more time we spend with the language, the better we will learn. The more we like what we are doing, the more we will do it.

I do find that when I am doing a form of study or review which I like, then there is resonance from the activity. I feel that I am learning. This is a difficult concept to explain. I can look at declensions tables or grammar rules or lists of words, read them, review them, but there is little resonance. There is little left in my brain after I finish. When I next look at the declension table I feel as if I am starting from the beginning again.

 I found the same when I used language books that only offered phrases and sentences without context. I listened over and over, but not much would stick. When there is an interesting context, there is more resonance. Two weeks of listening to Rubem Alves talk about education (and studying the transcripts) in Portuguese was worth more than one month of listening to Random House Living Language Portuguese.